Wing Life Show #2: What Wing Foil Gear Should I Buy as a Beginner, and How do I Set it Up?

Luc Moore (00:00.91)
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Welcome to the Wing Life podcast, where we talk about wing foiling and the lifestyles of those who enjoy this great sport. All right, all right, all right guys. Number two, thanks for coming back. Thanks for joining us. So I guess our overview of our first episode in the Wing Life show is, is don't be afraid to get out there. Don't be afraid to try something new and don't be afraid to take some lessons. I think that's the overview of our first one.

What are we going to talk about this week, guys? Triple backflips. You're ready. Go try it. Realize you are not ready and take a step back. So now let's talk about the gear. Yeah, let's talk about putting all the package together and then the next steps into living your best life. Beautiful. All right. Where do we start? I'm brand new.

I run down to the beach, I'm super stoked. Like what do we think our first things are? Take a huge loan out. Just kidding. Sorry. I have issues. Okay. First step would be make sure you, you know, we spoke about a connect with your community and you know, if you, if you can talk to somebody who's wing foiling, talk to them, get that information, learn it. You're probably connected with some people now. Maybe there's a shop.

Now it's picking the right gear. Do your research, talk to people, ask questions. This industry is special. People are special in this industry. They want to help. It's different. And the more you can learn about yourself and the right conditions in your area. If you live in Hawaii and it's blowing 40 knots and you live in Florida and it's blowing 15 on average, it's a big difference in gear. And so learn that and get that knowledge. And you won't know, but people will help you to guide you there.

Luc Moore (02:01.166)
And obviously, we're all here to help. But that's the first thing I would say in starting that journey into getting my equipment. Now, I would say you can buy the best and brand new, all that kind of stuff. But you also can just talk to the locals and kind of get your hands on some stuff and get started and just start putting your time in and putting your gear together and so on. But that would be the general start.

Yeah, I would say, you know, talk to as many people as possible because often you will hear that like, everybody has a different kind of like opinion. And so now, you know, that you might get confused, but if you try to collect as much feedback as you can, you're going to start seeing some common points along those lines. But ultimately, I would say it's going to be a struggle to learn.

So, you know, there is not a piece of equipment that's going to make it a breeze to learn. And so when you get on a setup, whatever the setup is, if you are struggling before blaming, I have the wrong equipment, you know, pulling the time, you know, you might have the completely wrong equipment. That's true. But if you talk to people often, they might be able to like help you with that or figure it out right away.

But if you are not that far off the perfect setup for you and you are struggling. It's just the process so I would say don't you know Oversink it, you know get get get some gear That's that's people are saying it's good. It's it's good for beginners either through your local shop or through like Use gear from from local riders around where you are

and, and yeah, just embrace the process for sure. That's a really good point. Actually, Glenn, like community based gear purchases is a good idea because there's a lot of communities that'll ride a specific brand and therefore reselling is easier. Purchasing is easier. And you also have a lot more feedback in that community based on whatever brand they chose to ride and adapt to.

Luc Moore (04:25.55)
So sometimes it does make the learning a little bit easier because you'll be able to ask and say, hey, like what specific foil did you find was the easiest for me? Like what size of wing did you use? Like where did you put your hands? I think all of that is crucial. And then if you choose to buy something new or you can do some community swapping, which does definitely help keep the cost down rather than if you're the unique rider in that area and nobody else wants to get into that brand for a particular reason, it might make things a little bit more.

challenging and setting up your gear you might not know as well or be as easy as for you to set up your kit. Yeah, I think I mean you guys are spot on. I would say if there's one essential item I would say I wish everybody could have in the beginning and be like a jet ski support, right? Because you're gonna make that lesson easier, make that learning curve easier. But I would say, you know, a good general I would say big picture look is

There's a ton of foils out there, there's a ton of wings out there, there's a ton of gear out there. And in general, it's all kind of doing the same thing. A wing is to pull or generate power with wind and then the foil's trying to get up on foil like and fly. So they all kind of do the same thing. So I agree with the concept of just getting stuff. I would say that, I think Gwen said it the best and that's as much as you can ask and get information because every area is different.

And I truly believe that your area is going to be the most giving to you as far as you're... And if you're that sole person that's in an area that has nothing around you and you're the lone person to give it a go, there's shops online, shops everywhere that you can talk to and people like us are happy to help. And that will help you as best as possible. But in reality, you're going to go through the same struggle everybody goes through and that's, I got to set up and...

too small, too big, too who knows, the conditions are too much, too little, the current's too strong, and that's the process. And I think, you know, even in the first episode here, it's just get out and get it started and just try, and you're gonna start to learn it. I think you're your best coach, and your best information is when you slowly start going through it yourself and learning, but hopefully we can eliminate a little bit of that struggle.

Luc Moore (06:51.118)
Yes, and eliminating that kind of struggle with getting the right equipment or setting up the equipment. Has there been any tips or feedback that you guys have received over the years as to what makes setting up a foil or setting up the wing the easiest? So, I mean, I feel like one of the first thing, I mean, usually putting the foil together, the screws usually only go one place. However, there is a brand that I'm not going to mention it, but.

has a stabilizer that can go both ways. And even recently within the last few months, I didn't know that. So I put the stabilizer in the wrong position upside down. And I was giving a lesson and I was like, why can I not ride right now? It was on my setup. So it's possible that you sometimes...

a foil, screws can go different, but most of them I would say, okay, screws are going to be like, it's going to be pretty straightforward. Now, once you have your foil together and you're, you know, ready to mount it to your burn, the mass position is a common question. I would say as a general rule, put it in the middle, start like that, and you go from there. In my opinion, the mass position is not,

a massive like deal because you can move your feet and it would have essentially the same impact as moving your mass. So like let's say you move your mass two inches back. If you would move your feet two inches on the bone, you can achieve pretty much the same result. The only reason you would need to move the mast in a different position is if you are at the end of range of what you can do with your feet on the bone. Let's say you are.

all the way forward on the pad or you are really digging in the nose and but that's where you need to be to be right on the foil then yes you have to move the foil back but again it's kind of like don't really over sink it don't let that stop you put it in the middle go out there put in the time at first the foil is going to take off you're going to fall it's not the mass position it's because you are still trying to figure it out.

Luc Moore (09:19.31)
So that would be general rule. And then again, if you have somebody local that can help you, like, you know, they saw you ride, they saw you take off and you having issues, maybe they're going to be able to say, okay, you know, maybe you should move your, your mass back or you should move your, your mass forward. And, but essentially mass back is going to help you.

keeping the nose down. If you have too much lift, you put your mass back. It's going to fix that. If you don't have enough lift, you are trying to take off. It's not taking off. Move your mass forward. But a common mistake with beginners is we want to try to take off as soon as possible. So we are cranking on that back foot. And actually, that's kind of like stopping you because now you are like plowing. It's like a plane. If you are trying to...

take off with the plane, you have no speed, you are already trying to take off. Now you need to build up speed before you try, you know, taking off. So often I don't like to put the mast two forward for beginners because they tend to really crank on the back foot and that's actually stopping them from picking up speed. But, you know, I would say mast position, that's about it. You start in the middle.

Wing, a common mistake would be maybe not to inflate it enough because it's maybe it's like you are like you want to keep your wing so nice you are scared to like that it's gonna blow up or something. And usually there is a recommended pressure that's written on the wing pump to at least that personally I put it usually like one psi over and I'm not recommending you do that because if it blows up you're gonna say it's my fault.

But usually wings, if it says like, you know, eight PSI, whatever, you could probably pump it to 10. It won't blow up. They have a safe margin. But a wing that's not inflated enough is not going to give you enough, you know, as much power as you could have. It's going to be, it's going to be maybe softer. So it's going to kind of like bleed power when, when, when you are like cranking, when you're pulling on your back end. So.

Luc Moore (11:38.83)
Make sure you pump your wing enough. And then I think you should be pretty good to go in the water. Yeah, I was just going to say for a general visual for somebody that's listening in, I would say picture an airplane, right? So like you have a hydrofoil, it's an airplane. So picture an airplane going down a runway. And if I take everybody in the airplane and I throw them all in the back, that airplane is not going to have the weight in the back and it's going to go like this. And so if you're on your foil or you start to go,

and your foil or your board just goes vertical. That means there's lift happening and you're stalling, obviously, so the front of the foil is lifting or maybe you're standing too far back on the board. And vice versa, if I take all the people and I throw them into the front of the plane and I get it going down the runway, it's not gonna maybe wanna take off as much, because all the weight's on the front. I'm keeping the nose down, I'm keeping everything down from taking off. So it's a good analogy to kind of like take a big picture of when you get your foil.

If I get out on the water and like Gwen said right away, it's going to happen. It's going to buck up on you and you're going to be like, whoa, what just happened? And then there's the opposite. There's people that get on the water and they go, I can't even get the full ever up. It's never coming up. I don't even know what's going on. And that could be your mass is all the way in the back and you're standing on the nose of that huge board. And it's going to take a lot for that to come up, either tons of speed, or maybe you do need to move that foil a little more forward.

So just kind of a good analogy is to take a look at an airplane and that's kind of, and I think Gwen said it really well and that's, you know, an airplane doesn't just take off, it gets its speed up, it gets going really flat, straight, fast, and then it slowly takes off. And it's the same concept of a foil in theory. You know, as you get better, people can do cool things and planes do cool things as well. But I would say in general, it's a good analogy when you look at your foil and when you're feeling it out there, if it's jumping up,

Maybe I should shift things back. And if it's not jumping up, maybe I should shift things forward. And it's a game of learning that. And it all depends on board size and so on and so forth. But I would say with the wing, I think Gwen makes a valid point. And a lot of people don't pump it up a lot. And the other valid point to just capitalize on that is when you go into the water, the water is usually cold, which, D, you may pump your wing up. And then when you go into the water, it actually shrinks because of the cold.

Luc Moore (14:03.98)
like makes less pressure. So a lot of times people will pump it up and then they go in the water and just because of that temperature difference, your wing may get a little bit less pressure. So things to think about. But I would say just in general, I guess I would say put your foil on, talk to your friends and you're going to go through that beginning struggle, truthfully. I would say the biggest key that could help if you're nervous or learning is a smaller foil mask.

can be a little more approachable. I would say I'm not necessarily saying it's better or worse. I'm just saying with a longer mast, if you have a really long mast and you're learning, there's a lot more for that airplane to kind of come up out of the water. So there's more drag underneath the water. So, you know, I would say just an average mast is just a good size to start with. And if you have a super long mast, it may make that learning curve a little bit harder. Personally, I hate.

long mast. I think it's the most useless thing. I mean, unless you are racing or you are going like Mack 10 on a big wave. But I think a short mast is going to help everybody getting going because we don't really think about it. But like when your boat is in the water and your foil is 10 centimeters, 15 centimeters deeper, it's one, it's adding

So much more drag like you said to take off And and you don't need that much height when you are like on the water I mean even with a 75 centimeter mast you can be so high Plenty high so I would say shorter mast is always gonna be better and again like if the wind is I kind of like you are struggling to stay out there if you have a long mass that's that's called it like you know 90 95 centimeters

it's going to be annoying because you have to go so much deeper. You have to swim further out. You are back on the beach sooner. So short term mast is the way to go, in my opinion. And then to talk about the wing, it's kind of like the pumps, the manual pumps that we have.

Luc Moore (16:27.276)
it's kind of hard to read the pressure. You push and your gauge is going up and down, up and down, up and down. And now you are like, okay, when am I good here? Am I trying to read the top or the bottom of the gauge? And so like an amazing tool, it's a bit more costly than a manual pump, but not that much is an electric pump that is going to stop automatically. And the reason we have had time reading the gauge with the manual pump is because

the pressure input is changing all the time. We push and then no pressure, push, no pressure. But the electric pump is giving a more consistent input. So you have a more accurate reading. And so you also can set up the exact pressure you want and it's gonna stop on the dot every time. So an electric pump is gonna help you pump your wing to...

the most accurate pressure without making mistakes. I've seen, if people are scared of using an electric pump, I've seen some pumps that are like, you can set it up on PSI or bar. And some people kind of messed up the settings. It's on bar and they put like seven bars and then your wing is blowing up or something. So just make sure that like...

It's set up for PSI if you are entering, say, seven, eight, nine PSI and not bath. But overall, I would say the electric pump, I think, has been a pretty amazing accessory to have. OK, so to recap on the mast length, so what would you consider a long mast and what would you consider a short mast for those that are getting brand new into this?

So I would say 70, 75, I would consider it short, or maybe even 65. I actually teach a lot on 65 centimeters. 80, 85 is kind of medium. And then 90, 95 is kind of super tall mass. And so.

Luc Moore (18:46.764)
A tall mast sometimes can help if you are riding in very choppy conditions. And at that point, if it's very choppy, it's usually very windy. So the extra drag is maybe not so much of an issue because you have tons of power to get up. But more choppy condition is going to make it harder to learn because it's moving more. So often,

I think beginners are finding themselves more in a situation of like not extreme trap, not extreme win. And in that case, a short mast is plenty. Okay. So 70 to 75, I guess our next phase, once you pick a mast length could be potentially looking at your fuse length. Yeah, that's just a general, I would say in general, I would say for somebody that's picking the longer.

The longer you can have a fuselage, and I say that within reason because there's a lot that can go into foils and we could go here for like six years and talk about this because this is aviation or this has been around forever. But I would say in general, a good rule of thumb is a fuselage length, which is the piece from the front wing to the back wing, the fuselage.

The longer that is, usually can stabilize or slow down your pitch sensitivity, your up and down motion of your foil. The closer you get it together, that pitch or that turn becomes more aggressive or increased. Now I say that within reason because you can put tiny, tiny little wings on the back on a really long one and it's going to have sort of a similar feel as maybe a little bit smaller but a different ride.

But I would say in general, I would say a longer fuselage is not gonna hurt you for stability. And in the beginning, you want stability. And I would literally say that I think anybody out there that foils in general, when you learn, you should shoot for stability and you should shoot for ease of use just to get started because the more time you can get on a foil, the more you can tune it in and you can go into the bigger mass and you can go into all the cool foils and you do whatever you want. But in the beginning,

Luc Moore (21:09.196)
You're just trying to put time on the water. And to me, the best thing is to just, you know, make sure you have enough power in your wing, a foil that lifts you up and conditions that you feel comfortable in. And I think Gwen nailed it a little bit earlier on, you know, the longer mass and potentially choppier conditions. I personally believe a lot of people learning, they choose actually to, to learn in less wind because when you see 30, 40, 50 knots, it's like,

intimidating. That's like, I don't know if I really want to go out. I like winging in, but maybe not. So people choose a lot less than they think. And then even when people see 15 to 20 knots, some places, that's a lot of wind to people. They haven't seen that before. So they're like, whoa, look at all that chop. Usually it's less than what they perceive. So...

The smaller mass and the longer fuselage is just going to give you ease of use and more stability. That would be my 10 cents. Okay. What's tricky about when we talk about sizes and aspect ratio and all of that, it's not all equal because there's so many components.

You can have like a bigger foil that's still going to be hard to ride or you can have a smaller foil that's going to be easier to ride. And a lot of that has to do with the foil profile. Brands usually have a recommendation. They have a beginner foil. So I think whatever brand you pick, just make sure that the foil you are going with is in there like beginner.

you know, category. Because it's hard to talk about size. You know, they are like, you know, for that would be maybe like 1300 square centimeters strong wing that may be considered small for a beginner. But if it has the right profile, it might have tons of lift and be very easy for on the other end, you might have like 1800 square centimeter foil.

Luc Moore (23:32.076)
that seems bigger, maybe better for a beginner. But actually it's a pretty tricky fault, right? Because it's more performance oriented for what it's made for. So just make sure that you just don't look at just the size and you pick a fault that was designed for beginners. Good points, good points.

What about board selection? Cause I know that's a big one with a lot of questions regarding it. What have you guys seen with that one? Fiberglass, do you go blow up? Do you go sup? Do you go blow up sup? Like everything. To me, I would say I see quite a few people going with maybe trying to get the convenience of a inflatable bone. And to me,

I kind of really dislike inflatable burns because I find them harder to ride. They are more sticky, so they get in the way of people trying to get up on foil. And also, that's in the design of most of the inflatable burns, but they are pretty short, super compact. And so they are not even as stable, even for...

a massive volume, they might not even be that stable. So I've seen people struggle on like, you know, 140 litre inflatable burns. And it would be easy if they had 130 litre burn that was not inflatable and that was a more better design maybe. So like, I find that like, you know, the sport went from like, I think both were like kind of long at the beginning.

then they went like super short and now everything is going back to being long again. So we see it in like downwind burns, you know, downwind, I mean, that's, you know, talking about the extreme. I don't recommend a downwind burn for a beginner, but when we look at the downwind burn, you know, it's, it's very long, you know, seven foot, eight foot, even more and very narrow yet it's not as, you know, tippy as, as it looks. And that comes from,

Luc Moore (25:53.42)
the length. So for beginner birds, I don't recommend anybody if they are going in the volume of 130 plus to ever go below six feet long. I think that's going to start making the bird very unstable and a bit more drag. So it's kind of like a lose -lose situation.

The burn I've been using for teaching, which I find the easiest for most people is 155 liters, 7 .3. And so it's the easiest burn that I've found. And length is definitely helping. And again, I feel like foiling went to a point where we...

Or we're thinking like, you know, shorter is better. And now we are realizing like actually longer is helping and it doesn't feel terrible when you ride. So that would be, that would be my, my tips for picking a bone. Yeah. So this one, that's a complicated topic here. This one's a, this one's a tough one. I would say for, for, for the general idea of it, I would say, well, first I would say the number one mistake is most people.

The number one question and the number one mistake is, I want one board. I can do everything in the future with it. For the next 10 years. And I want to make sure I can prone foil, I want to wing foil, I want to downwind foil, I want to dock start, I want to do everything. And I would say for those people out there, you're never going to have it. Yeah, it's...

It's just one of those things. It's like any sport. Can you have the cycle bike that goes really fast on the road but jumps into the dirt and does... Whenever you put it all together, it's only going to be as good in some areas as it can be. It's never going to be as good as that area specific. To answer that question, I would say, hard to get. But what I would say is, I would say the biggest mistake people do is always go too small. They think...

Luc Moore (28:13.292)
If the good guys out there on this size, I'm going to go with that size. So like, let's just say the local legends are ripping around on, you know, maybe 70 to 100 liter boards. Could you pull it off and could you get there? Sure. Could you spend a lot more time struggling to get there? Yes. So don't be afraid to necessarily, like Gwen said, like, you know, he's teaching on 155 liter board. Like that's

Ease and fast use to learn how to do the sport. So if anything, make it easy to learn it. Like as easy as you can learn it, because once you learn it, a lot easier to go down, down sizing and even that can be challenging. But I'm just saying, start big, start easy, make it as easy as possible in the beginning. And I think that's super important because, you could, you could struggle for a long time. I struggled for a very long time. I was sort of in the beginning of the sport, not beginning, but starter in the.

beginning stages. And I thought you had to be in like a hurricane to ride because we were using boards that were like potato chips because that's just what we had. And we just thought, well, it's like literally a hurricane. It's blowing 40. We can do it today. You know, and so I would say go bigger with the board. Have I think Gwen makes a good point. The industry started with shorter and wider and shorter and wider is if you think about it, it's stable with width.

but short makes it forward and it becomes like a teacup that wants to roll around. And as you go a little longer, you get more stability. But again, there's a trade off because if I go super wide and super long, now I got this huge plank on the water that's very sticky. So it's kind of learning that, but I would say in general, volume is gonna be your friend. I agree, I believe. In...

And that's just, that would be my sense for when you're, when you're picking boards, do your research in your local area and definitely talk to your locals. I would say we can throw out a million different specs and we do, and we try to do a general idea, but I would say in general, talk to your, talk to the locals in your area. But if I were to steer anybody, I always steer them to more is better. More time on, I mean, I can have fun writing a bigger board and learn a lot still. I don't have to be on that perfect board that's small.

Luc Moore (30:37.548)
Now, I know there's a lot of metrics to gauge what is big and what is small in regarding boards. Have you guys seen something like what I've heard the most is about you convert your weight into kilograms and then it's let's say plus 30 or plus 40 per volume per kg to get started. Have you guys seen a number that makes the most sense because 155 litre board might be great for me at 145 pounds.

but if they're let's say 220 pounds, six foot two, then that 150 might be pretty small. So is there a metric that you've seen?

Luc Moore (31:20.586)
It's, I would say it's kind of hard because a lot of it has to do with skills, skill level and experience. So, you know, like you said, like, you know, maybe, you know, somebody like that's like very tall, very heavy, maybe they have no problem on it. And then yet somebody that's like 130 pounds, it might feel like it's too small or something.

so the, it's, it's always hard to like come up with a rule, and, and that, that would apply to every everybody because the, you know, if you just plug in like, you know, height and weight, because skills is so, is, you know, so much, of a, has a big impact. So if you can, you know, try a setup, you know, that would be.

always the ultimate best and that maybe, you know, that's what you get. Also, when you get a lesson often, you get to try, try the gear. and now, now you have an idea. And so you take your first lesson, you try a 50, 155 litre burn and you are like, okay, that's what that was like, way easy. I'm ready for more challenge. or, or you are like, okay, you know, that was like, just, it was just good for me and that's what I need. and so I've seen people that are like really lightweight and that's still what they need.

155 liters. So it's hard to plug in, in my opinion, height and weight. Yeah, I'd second that too. And I would say I would totally lean on anybody. It's worth the money if you can, even if you're getting better at wing foiling, to take a lesson to try different setups or to have somebody assist you and be able to...

try a different wing that's a different size, try a different board that's a different leader, because it's going to help you narrow it in for your area. And I would say having a general rule of certain kilos or certain pounds of a difference, I would say in my opinion, I think there's other things you have to take in consideration, just weight and size. Maybe I have bad hamstrings and I can't get up a certain way and maybe I...

Luc Moore (33:40.713)
can't use this arm because it's the muscles tougher. Everybody has something different and I just think that your best bet is always still to go as bigger than you can in the beginning so that you have volume and you have stability. What that is, I would say, is a tricky number to put on it like an equation. Okay. So we went over board basics. We're preferring a fiberglass board.

Go big pretty much or go home and have fun. Foil placement, kind of looking in the center. You're looking for any brand that you want to ride, but it's more so just their beginner foil is probably the safest. Looking between what's around 72 mass to kind of get started. It's a pretty safe place to go. And then wing size. If you're tall, if you're small, have you seen or have any recommendations based on how big or how small should somebody start with picking?

picking a wing and then you got soft handles, the medium kind of handles and then the brand new all these kind of hard handles with infinite combinations.

Luc Moore (34:51.369)
I would keep it pretty simple. I'd say all the handles and stuff, look, they all work. I would say I think booms are the easiest. I would say I would think people feel comfortable just grabbing onto a solid piece and it's, I'm not saying it is, I'm just saying in general. But I would say all the handles work. So if you have a wing that's handles, loops, I think it is going to more fixed stuff because you feel more solid. You feel the direct feeling between the wing and the wind. But I would say,

Hard to pick a general size, but usually I would say if I recommend a lot to most people and we live in Florida, conditions are lighter, but we'll just call it, you know, people go out in 15 to 20 knots. I would say a six meter is a great size for somebody who's, you know, retired, maybe learning. Again, it depends on somebody's ability, but I would say a six meter is a good size because you have some power. It's not super big, but again, you know, it's...

It's again that same question that everybody asks, can I have that one wing that can do everything and I don't have to have the big wing, can I have the perfect one? But I would say I think a six meter for most people to get started is a good size. I don't think you're going to go wrong. You're going to go out in the lighter wind conditions. That's my sort of theory here. Now, if I lived in Hawaii and it was the normal trades, I would say not going to be a six meter. So obviously you got to know your areas. Yeah.

I think five is also a good size if you are a bit lighter weight. But in my opinion, five and six is going to be the most ideal to learn because it's in that wind range where conditions are going to be very friendly. Unfortunately, if you learn in a place where you need three meters, it might be a bit harder just because of the condition that comes when...

The wind is good for a three meter wing. Now you can find some spots that are like protected. So maybe it's a bit more flat, but still when you have like a tons of wind, everything becomes more twitchy. Things happen faster. So I find that like people have like maybe more success in moderate wind. Like you said, 15 to 20 to me, that's like the sweet spot.

Luc Moore (37:16.712)
And in that range, a five or six meter wing, depending on your weight, is going to be perfect.

Valid points. All right, fellas. So we kind of wrap, let's wrap this one up. And I think the next time for our third episode, we're going to go into safety gear. Yeah. What do you need? Knee pads? Is that a good idea? Like how are we getting up? How are we getting out there and making sure that we come home and do it safely? Well, yeah. I mean, I remember seeing Damien when he learned how to e -foil in the bubble. And I saw that that was a pretty good idea.

All right, I'm looking forward to getting into it. Thanks everybody for joining us today and stoked to chat with you on the next one.